Let’s take math as an example. I suspect that people who apply grammar rules well are also people who understand a lot about not just how to *carry out* a math formula as a formula, but how to take that understanding of math and determine when and how to use it in their daily lives. Conversely, I would think that the people good at this aspect of math, if they learned a language, would also do better at applying grammar rules to language production.

Mostly though, as with math, I think you not only have to learn the rule but practice using it before you get good at applying it.

I was actually mainly wondering about the correlation between explicit grammar skills in a student’s native language (explicit in that they can not only understand but also explain its grammar) and how they approach grammar in a second language. I’m sure there’s been a lot written about that (as with everything) but it doesn’t seem to come up often in the ongoing “what to do with grammar” debate.

For example, it seems to me that the students who get the most out of a “direct grammar teaching” approach often have good and explicit grammar skills in their native language.

You make some excellent points. Our dialogue is a good example of the on-going debate about grammar instructions.

Perhaps I shouldn’t be so quick to look at it as an either/or situation.

Larry

As a language learner, *some* grammar items I would just as soon have taught to me directly. After that, I can notice them in the language.

Sometimes I come across puzzling things in French or Spanish – such as the use in Spanish of the subjunctive (much more widely used than in French). I could NOT figure out some of the patterns. It helped a *lot* to have someone explain it to me. It doesn’t mean I can use it with any great skill, but at least now I can make more sense of it when I see it or hear it, and that will help me incorporate it more rapidly.

Using an inductive approach to figure out the uses (in English) of present perfect would be difficult, since the tense is very complex – and, since it has poor perceptual salience, much of its use in spoken English goes unnoticed by non-native learners.

I appreciate your comment on my blog, as well as all your thoughtful emails on the TESL listserv.

I actually did not say that all grammar can be taught indirectly. I believe, however, that teaching grammar inductively and through the concept attainment strategy that I mentioned in my post are very effective ways to help guide learners to understand grammar.

Larry

Many well-known ESL figures have contributed to the book: Rod Ellis, Jack Richards, Michael McCarthy, Diane Larsen-Freeman, Marianne Celce-Murcia…and more…

It’s worth knowing what they have researched and how, even if you don’t agree.